Preamble

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]

NEW WRIT.

For the County of York (West Riding) (Doncaster Division), in the room of John Morgan, Esq., deceased [Sir Charles Edwards].

Oral Answers to Questions — MILITARY SERVICE.

EXEMPTION CLAIM.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. Nemo Ermini, of Hemel Hempstead, who applied for registration as a conscientious objector on the grounds that he could not conscientiously take up arms on behalf of this country in view of the fact that his father, who had fought for the Allies in the war of 1914–18, had gone down on the "Arandora Star," and that he, himself, had been refused admission to the Home Guard because his father was an Italian; and whether, in the light of the circumstances disclosed, he will take steps to give this man the exemption he seeks?

The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Bevin): I have written to my hon. Friend about this case.

AGRICULTURAL WORKERS.

Mr. Higgs: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the serious position in which farmers will be placed if more agricultural labourers are called to the Colours; and can he see his way clear to permit the reservations to remain as they are at present in the agricultural industry?

Mr. Bevin: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on 21st January, on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, to a Question put by the hon. Member for Tamworth (Sir J. Mellor). I am unable at present to add to that reply.

Mr. Higgs: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, since there is a great deal more land under the plough, more labour is required? The farmer has to plan twelve months ahead and some decision ought to be given to this matter?

Mr. Bevin: I think my hon. Friend will appreciate that at a time like this every industry must make some contribution, and every industry must seek to train substitute labour.

Sir Joseph Lamb: Would it be possible for either the Army or Navy to fight if they were not fed?

Mr. Butcher: asked the Minister of Labour whether he can state the number of men engaged in agriculture before the war who have joined and remain in the Armed Forces?

Mr. Bevin: It would not be in the national interest to give this figure.

Mr. Butcher: asked the Minister of Labour whether, irrespective of the Schedule of Reserved Occupations, he will refrain from calling for service in the Armed Forces any man employed in agriculture, either employer or employed, except with the specific agreement of the appropriate county war agricultural executive committee?

Mr. Bevin: I propose to continue to give full weight to the recommendations of these committees with regard to the calling-up of agricultural workers for the Forces, but I cannot go so far as to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion which would in effect place the final decision in the hands of the committees.

Mr. Touche: asked the Minister of Agriculture the number of recommendations for exemption from military service made by the Surrey War Agricultural Committee; and the number of cases in which the recommendations have been given effect?

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): No, Sir. The county war agricultural executive committees are my agents; but while I am not prepared to disclose details of transactions between them and the headquarters of my Department, I can say that very great weight is always attached to their recommendations.

COTTON INDUSTRY.

Mr. Rhys Davies: asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been called to the complaint of the Cotton Spinners and Manufacturers Association that difficulties in conducting business among its members have been intensified because the Schedule of Reserved Occupations applies harshly to certain classes of office workers and executive; and will he take steps to remove the cause of this complaint?

Mr. Bevin: I know of no complaint from the association in question regarding the treatment of office workers and executives under the Schedule of Reserved Occupations. My hon. Friend may have in mind the objection offered by that association to the decision to raise the age of reservation for wholesale salesmen. That decision was reached after considering all relevant circumstances including its affect on the cotton textile industry. I can hold out no hope of making an exception in favour of that industry.

Mr. Davies: If I send the right hon. Gentleman this complaint which has appeared in the Press, together with documents relating to it, will he look at it?

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL WAR EFFORT.

WOMEN.

Mr. Brooke: asked the Minister of Labour whether it is his intention that firms engaged in Government contracts, and employing men on work which could be efficiently done by women, should adopt a policy of replacing the men with women as soon as women can be trained for the purpose?

Mr. Bevin: It is my intention to secure with the co-operation of the Production Departments that in industry generally women should be employed on work suitable to them to the utmost extent thus releasing men for work which necessitates the employment of men.

Mr. Brooke: As a change-over of this sort is naturally liable to cause acute feeling locally, can a firm which endeavours to release men in this way count on the full support of the Minister?

Mr. Bevin: Certainly.

PRESS ADVERTISEMENTS FOR WORKERS.

Mr. Mander: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the difficulties created by the fact that, while advertisements for workers in connection with munitions are not permitted to be published in the Press, yet advertisements for workers on work other than munitions are so permitted thereby prejudicing important war work; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?

Mr. Bevin: The position at present is that engagements of workers in the general engineering, the building and the civil engineering industries must be made through the employment exchanges or through approved arrangements with trade unions. It follows that employers in those industries cannot advertise for workers. The hon. Member will be aware from what I said in the Debate on 21st January of my proposals for securing the diversion of labour from unessential to essential work as required and I do not think that, at any rate at this stage, the prohibition of all advertisements for workers of all kinds would materially assist in this object.

Mr. Mander: Does not my right hon. Friend realise that there is a serious gap here which requires to be filled up in some manner; and will he be good enough to devote his mind to filling it up?

DOMESTIC SERVANTS.

Mr. Thorne: asked the Minster of Labour whether he will cause a review to be made of any cases in which people have five, six or seven servants to wait upon them in view of the fact that that number of servants in any one house is hampering our war efforts?

Mr. Bevin: In the Debate on 21st January, I outlined my proposals for ensuring the diversion of labour from unessential work to essential work as required.

Earl Winterton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that my hon. Friend's Question is viewed with considerable sympathy in many quarters?

Mr. Bevin: I am sure my hon. Friend always gets sympathy everywhere.

COMMUNISTS (PIVOTAL POSITIONS).

Mr. Glenvil Hall: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will take steps to ensure


that active Communists are not allowed to occupy pivotal positions in establishments engaged in the manufacture or distribution of munitions?

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Herbert Horrison): It would not be in the public interest for me to make any statement on the subject of the measures taken to protect establishments engaged on important war work against dangerous activities, regardless of the political complexion of the individuals concerned.

Mr. Thorne: Surely, whether a man is a Communist or any other "ist," if he carries on his work in a proper way, without interference from outside, he has a right to have a job?

Mr. Morrison: I have indicated that I am primarily concerned with the security aspect, not the individual aspect.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the security aspect is the only aspect I had in mind?

GOVERNMENT FACTORIES (AMENITIES).

Mr. Graham White: asked the Prime Minister whether the structural provision of adequate canteens and other amenities in Government factories is the responsibility of the Ministry of Labour or the Ministry of Supply?

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): The primary responsibility for such provision in a Government-owned factory rests with the Department that owns it.

TRAINING SCHEME (INTERNED REFUGEES).

Mr. Wedgwood: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the Ministry of Labour's training scheme for munition workers, although applicable to Jewish refugees, does not cover those refugees who are interned at present; and will he consider taking the appropriate steps to release those refugees who volunteer for training in the same way as he releases volunteers for the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps?

Mr. Morrison: As I have previously stated, for men who are eligible for the Pioneer Corps the best method of demonstrating their readiness to help the Allied cause is to volunteer for service in that Corps, and I should not be prepared to

offer to such men the alternative of volunteering for the training scheme to which my right hon. Friend refers. I am, however, consulting with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour on the question whether the opportunity of entering the training scheme can be offered to those who are found to be physically unfit for the Corps. As my right hon. Friend knows, there are also arrangements for the release of men with special technical qualifications.

Captain Shaw: Can the Home Secretary tell us how many of these people have volunteered to join the civil corps?

Mr. Morrison: I cannot say without notice.

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL DEFENCE.

EVACUATION.

Mr. Horabin: asked the Minister of Labour what steps have been taken to ensure that the Assistance Board functions effectively at Newquay so that evacuated women and their families are not left without the means to buy food over the week-ends?

Mr. Bevin: My hon. Friend addressed a Question to me on this subject on Thursday last. I promised to make inquiries, but these are not yet complete.

Mr. Parker: asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that considerable difficulties have arisen, following evacuation, owing to the different income scales applied by various local authorities in connection with maternity and child welfare services; and whether he will either draw up uniform scales for the whole country, or else meet any difference which arises owing to families removing from an evacuation to a reception area?

The Minister of Health (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald): I am not aware of any widespread difficulty in this matter, and I am not satisfied that any interference with the normal discretion of local authorities would be justified.

DAMAGED PROPERTY (REPAIRS, BIRMINGHAM).

Sir Patrick Hannon: asked the Minister of Labour whether he will state the extent to which he has been able to meet the request made by the Birmingham City


Council for additional labour for the repair of damaged house property and the restoration of public utility services?

Mr. Bevin: Substantial assistance has been given by my Department to the Birmingham City Council in the provision of the necessary labour. This has been effected partly by means of skilled workers released from the Army or loaned by surrounding local authorities, partly by withdrawing men temporarily from work on contracts in the neighbourhood, and partly by the supply of workers who were previously unemployed. I am not in a position to give figures.

Sir P. Hannon: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the grave situation in Birmingham in relation to the reparation of houses which have been destroyed, and will he do all he possibly can to provide labour for the restoration of houses?

Mr. Bevin: Certainly.

Mr. Rhys Davies: Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to look into this matter at once? There are hundreds if not thousands of houses which require a little repair.

Mr. Bevin: I can assure by hon. Friend that very few people have been called up from the building industry. As a matter of fact, the number of people who have been added to the building industry for this purpose runs into many thousands, and steps have been taken, in conjunction with the Minister of Works and Buildings, in order to put them into mobile squads to move about the country where the "blitz" takes place.

WOMEN AMBULANCE DRIVERS, LONDON (PAY).

Mr. Glenvil Hall: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that women ambulance drivers in the London area receive only 42s. per week plus one meal ticket during each tour of duty; and whether, as this is less than the amount paid to men doing similar work, he will bring the remuneration paid to women up to that paid to men?

Mr. H. Morrison: The basic pay for women Civil Defence volunteers is the same throughout the country, and I could not agree that in the particular services where the same duties are under-

taken by men and women, there should be an assimilation of pay, if only because the normal working week for the whole-time women volunteer is one of 48 hours, whereas paid male Civil Defence personnel normally work a 72-hour week.

Mr. Hall: Am I to understand that my right hon. Friend is not contemplating raising these rates? Might I remind him that we were told in the House that there was a prospect of assimilating these rates?

Mr. Morrison: This matter has been under discussion, and I cannot usefully add anything at this stage.

DETENTIONS.

Mr. Wedgwood: asked the Home Secretary what charges have been preferred against Mr. Leslie Tessler, at present detained in Pentonville Prison since August; why his case has not been brought before a judge or a magistrate; and will he order his release if the charges do not justify his continued detention?

Mr. H. Morrison: This alien was detained under an Order made under Art. 12 (5A) of the Aliens Order, 1920, as subsequently amended, on the grounds that it was impracticable to enforce a Deportation Order which had been made against him, and that his detention was necessary or expedient for securing the maintenance of public order. His case was recently reviewed by the Advisory Committee appointed to consider the cases of persons detained in pursuance of this power, and, having considered the Committee's recommendations, I decided to release Tessler. He was set at liberty on 8th January.

Mr. Marcus Samuel: asked the Home Secretary whether he is acting with the same celerity in the review of cases of British subjects detained under Regulation 18B as he is in that of aliens?

Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir.

Mr. Samuel: Will the right hon. Gentleman give as much consideration to British subjects as to foreigners?

Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir.

Viscountess Davidson: asked the Home Secretary how many recommendations have been received from the Home Office Advisory Committee appointed to hear appeals from persons detained under Defence Regulation 18B; and in how


many cases is his decision still outstanding?

Mr. Morrison: The figures are approximately 1,300 and 300 respectively.

Viscountess Davidson: asked the Home Secretary, taking into consideration the fact that the women detained in Holloway Prison under Defence Regulation 18B are not convicts, whether he will consider transferring them, if they so wish aster their appeal has been heard, to the Isle of Man or to some other women's camp where they would get proper exercise and suitable amenities?

Mr. Morrison: I have already been considering this point. While there is nothing to prevent detention in the Isle of Man of persons of enemy nationality detained under the Prerogative, I am advised that my powers of detaining other persons under the Emergency Powers Act do not cover detention in the Isle of Man. I am, however, examining the question whether it is practicable to arrange that any of the latter class of persons who volunteer to go to the Island can be sent there.

Miss Rathbone: Will the right hon. Gentleman, if he does send these people to the Isle of Man, take care that they are so placed that they are not in a position to conduct Fascist propaganda among their fellow internees, of which there are some cases?

Mr. Morrison: I will consider that point, which, indeed, reflects the general policy of the Department in so far as it is practicable to apply it, but I should be rather comforted if I could feel that the anti-Fascists and the anti-Nazis would not be altogether unwilling to engage in propaganda themselves.

Sir Hugh O'Neill: Would that apply to men detained in Brixton Prison?

Mr. Morrison: This is a question about women, and it is not so easy in the case of men, but that point is under consideration.

Miss Rathbone: asked the Home Secretary whether the aliens of friendly nationalities formerly detained in prisons and now removed to Lingfield are still receiving rations based on the scale for convicted prisoners or whether they are getting the same dietary as refugees and other aliens of enemy nationality in other intern-

ment camps; and whether the removal of such detainees to internment camps is now complete?

Mr. Morrison: The aliens of non-enemy nationality removed from prison to Ling-field Camp are receiving the same dietary as aliens of enemy nationality detained in internment camps. As regards the last part of the Question, the removal of the men detained is practically completed, and the question of providing alternative accommodation for the women still detained in prison is receiving active consideration.

Miss Rathbone: asked the Home Secretary whether he has been able to make arrangements for the removal of alien women detained at Holloway Prison to an internment camp or to some suitable hostel; and whether there is likely to be further delay about this, will he arrange that such women while at Holloway shall receive the diet provided in internment camps and not that prescribed for convicted prisoners?

Mr. Morrison: Most of the women of enemy nationality who were detained at Holloway have been removed to the Isle of Man. No suitable alternative accommodation for the alien women of other nationalities has yet been found, but every endeavour is being made to provide such accommodation. The arrangements at Holloway are not such as to enable a separate diet to be provided for these women, but it is open to them to supplement the diet by private purchases.

Miss Rathbone: Is the Home Secretary aware that there are among these women a considerable number who have no means and are destitute, and is it suitable that they should have a prison diet, while in the internment camp, the internees are receiving a superior diet; and will he hasten the removal of these women from prison?

Mr. Morrison: I want to get them out of prison, if I can find other accommodation, which I hope to do, but in the meantime, I am afraid that it is not possible administratively to distinguish between the diets in prison.

Captain Shaw: asked the Home Secretary whether it has been found possible, under Brixton Prison regulations, strictly to comply with the provisions set forth in Command Paper 6162?

Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir, except that it has hitherto not been possible to arrange for meals in association. Now that the numbers detained in prison are of more manageable proportions, consideration is to be given to this question. The detained persons have been allowed to associate during the hours set apart for labour although they do not work and, if the rules were enforced strictly, they would be kept in their cells during these hours.

Captain Shaw: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these people do not get all the privileges that a prisoner on remand gets; and will he see that they do get such privileges?

Mr. Morrison: I think my answer indicates that the undertaking given in the White Paper has been substantially carried out.

Captain Shaw: But will the right hon. Gentleman see that they get the same privileges as prisoners on remand?

Captain Shaw: asked the Home Secretary whether he will institute a judicial inquiry to report on the working of the advisory committee dealing with persons detained under the Defence of the Realm Act, Regulation 18B?

Mr. Morrison: I am not aware of the need for any such inquiry.

Captain Shaw: Does not my right hon. Friend think there are good reasons for instituting a judicial inquiry to report on this matter?

Mr. Morrison: I do not agree. I have read the reports in all cases under Regulation 18B—they have run into several hundreds—and I think these Advisory Committees carry out their work adequately.

PUBLIC RELATIONS OFFICER (MR. MICHAEL ARLEN).

Mr. Higgs: asked the Home Secretary whether he is now in a position to reply to the communication sent by the hon. Member for West Birmingham, on 23rd December last, concerning the appointment of Mr. Michael Arlen as a public relations officer for the Midland region; and is he further aware that this appointment is causing considerable dissatisfaction?

Mr. H. Morrison: I am now in a position to communicate with my hon. Friend, and am doing so.

Mr. Higgs: Is the Minister aware that this man is a Bulgarian, and that his original name was Dikran Kouyoum-djyian, and does he consider that the general tone of his writings fits him for the position? Is he also aware that this man has access to confidential information?

Mr. Morrison: The hon. Member is wrong in some of his statements, and I think it best that he should await the letter which I am sending him.

Mr. Mander: Can the letter not be communicated to the House as a whole? Why should the information be given only to the hon. Member?

Mr. Sorensen: What is the general tone of the writings of this man?

Mr. Morrison: I do not know.

Mr. G. Strauss: Could my right hon. Friend give us the gist of the letter?

Mr. Morrison: The letter is not yet written, so I cannot do that.

FIRE PREVENTION.

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Home Secretary whether, in his proposed compulsory service for fire-fighting and civilian defence, he has considered the position of conscientious objectors who have previously volunteered for such service or for air-raid precautions and Auxiliary Fire Service duties and were rejected by municipal authorities; and whether, in view of the urgent need of service in civilian defence, he proposes to take any action to prevent municipal authorities losing any fire-fighter, air-raid precautions or Auxiliary Fire Service service through prejudice against those who offer or are compelled to serve?

Mr. H. Morrison: It is not intended to prescribe that conscientious objectors shall be exempted from the general obligations of the recent Defence Regulation relating to fire prevention, and I deprecate refusals to accept offers of voluntary service in Civil Defence from such persons at a time when the services of every citizen are required.

Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many cases conscientious objectors have offered themselves for fire-fighting and other hazardous duties, and have been rejected purely on the ground of prejudice? Will he take some steps to prevent that?

Mr. Morrison: Yes, I am aware that that is so. The local authority is the employer; but, in view of the statement I have made, I hope that beneficial results will follow.

Mr. R. C. Morrison: asked the Home Secretary when local authorities in danger areas will receive supplies of protective helmets for distribution to fire watchers?

Mr. H. Morrison: I am asking local authorities to indicate their requirements and they will be met as soon as practicable on a priority basis. I hope that substantial issues will be made in the course of the next few weeks.

Mr. R. C. Morrison: Is the Home Secretary aware that the enthusiasm of these State fire-fighting parties is being seriously affected by this delay, particularly when these men see half-page advertisements every day from big West End stores advertising protective helmets, and yet in some streets they are unable to get a single helmet for fire watchers; and will he be prepared, at any rate, to issue sufficient to allow of two helmets per street, as some streets have not a single helmet?

Mr. H. Morrison: I can assure my hon. Friend that there are not large supplies in West End stores, but as very large quantities of these helmets have been ordered the supply will be considerable and I shall get them along very soon.

Mr. Garro Jones: Is the Home Secretary aware that the specification of these helmets is most meticulous in character and that many engineers of great repute say that a modification of specification would result in a great increase of production?

Mr. H. Morrison: My hon. Friend will be glad to learn that that is exactly what has already been done.

Captain Alan Graham: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider making use of surplus Italian steel helmets, of which there will be a considerable supply available?

Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte: Will the Home Secretary also consider the provision of protective helmets for members of the Home Guard who have not got them?

SHELTERS.

Mr. Culverwell: asked the Home Secretary whether he has decided to reimburse to local authorities the whole of the approved expenditure in respect of contracts entered into for the erection of air-raid shelters after 19th October, 1940; and whether, as a measure of equity, he will reconsider the question with a view to reimbursing local authorities similar expenditure incurred prior to this date?

Mr. H. Morrison: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on Tuesday by my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to Questions asked by my hon. Friends the Members for Roth-well (Mr. Lunn) and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser).

Mr. Culverwell: Does my right hon. Friend not agree that the choice of this purely arbitrary date operates against those authorities which were first to provide protection against air raids, and unfairly favours those who neglected their duty?

Mr. Morrison: I have explained that I was concerned to get speedy action under the conditions of the "blitz" which recently commenced, and it was to accelerate action in future that I made this concession. I do not think it reasonable to ask the Treasury to make the concession retrospective.

Mr. Culverwell: But, in view of the unfairness of this, will the Government reconsider their decision?

Mr. Morrison: I am afraid I cannot give any promise to do that.

Mr. Sorensen: Will my right hon. Friend consider this suggestion, in view of the very strong feeling about this inequity as between local authorities?

Mr. Morrison: I agree that that is a very strong point, but I do not think that I should be justified in going back on the past decision.

Mr. Lipson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that we want speedy action in future, and that this decision will prevent such speedy action?

Mr. Morrison: I cannot make any promise at all. The future cannot give more than a 100 per cent. front.

Sir Irving Albery: asked the Home Secretary whether he can now state whether there is any change of shelter policy resulting from a public announcement recently made by Lord Horder?

Mr. Morrison: I am not yet in a position to make a statement.

Sir I. Albery: Will the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to make a statement shortly?

Mr. Morrison: I hope so.

Mr. Sorensen: In the meanwhile, can the right hon. Gentleman say, in general, whether these shelters are being used widely?

Mr. Morrison: I know that brick shelters as a whole have stood up to the test, though they vary from place to place and from circumstances to circumstances. I am aware, of course, that they were constructed primarily for daytime use, but they are in process of adaptation for night use where that is expedient.

Sir I. Albery: asked the Home Secretary whether he now has any information showing to what extent brick surface shelters are being made use of during air raids?

Mr. Morrison: I am sending to my hon. Friend a note giving such information as is available.

Sir I. Albery: Has the right hon. Gentleman any information as to whether there are a great number of brick shelters erected in and around London which are never occupied at all?

Mr. Morrison: There are some, but it depends on the district and on the circumstances. These matters are under consideration in relation to the general review of the shelter policy.

INTERNEES.

Mr. Mander: asked the Home Secretary the position with regard to the presence in the same internment camp at Huyton, of Nazis and anti-Nazis, Fascists and anti-Fascists; and whether steps are being taken to isolate them from each other?

Mr. H. Morrison: The only recent change with regard to this camp has been the arrival of 204 internees brought back

from Canada for consideration of their cases with a view to release. These are being accommodated temporarily in a part of the camp quite separate from that in which Nazis or pro-Germans are interned. There are also five Italians temporarily in the camp, four of whom are in hospital.

Mr. Mander: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there has been a good deal of pressure and intimidation by Nazis against anti-Nazis and that the Nazis are in a great majority? Would he make inquiries with a view to putting an end to such a disgraceful state of affairs?

Mr. Morrison: I find it very difficult to follow my hon. Friend's argument that there is a large Nazi majority. We do in fact seek to keep them separate. I hope the anti-Nazis will be strong enough not to be intimidated and not conduct themselves as if they were afraid of the Nazis.

Mr. Sorensen: Does my right hon. Friend know whether the four Italians in hospital are pro-Fascist or anti-Fascist?

Mr. Morrison: I could not say.

Mr. Silverman: asked the Home Secretary to what extent female internees in the Isle of Man are being released from internment on signing a declaration that they are willing to return to Germany as and when opportunity offers in exchange for British citizens there interned; and why persons who have in that way declared their German sympathies are released while genuine refugees from Nazi oppression, who will never willingly return to their oppressors, are still detained?

Mr. Morrison: I think that my hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. No internees are being or would be released with a view to repatriation to Germany at some future date. If there were a possibility of repatriating any internees who desired to return to Germany and there were no security objections to their repatriation they would be taken under escort direct from the internment camp to the ship.

Mr. Silverman: Do I understand from my right hon. Friend's reply that no women have been released from the Isle of Man on signing such a declaration as is referred to in my Question?

Mr. Morrison: That is my information but if my hon. Friend has any information to the contrary I will gladly look into it.

FIREMEN (RUM RATION).

Sir I. Albery: asked the Home Secretary whether he will arrange for a ration of rum to be issued to firemen in bad weather, and during exceptionally arduous periods of duty?

Mr. H. Morrison: I am not yet in a position to make a statement.

Viscountess Astor: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that, though rum may warm people, it does not make them more alert?

Sir I. Albery: Do I gather from the answer that the matter is being considered, and that possibly, in spite of what the Noble Lady has said, the issue of a ration of rum may be made?

Mr. R. C. Morrison: Will the Home Secretary bear in mind that some hot drink would be more useful?

Mr. H. Morrison: I must apologise to hon. Members. I have answered by mistake Question No. 36. I will now answer Question No. 35. The question of arranging for an issue of rum for fire service personnel is primarily one for the responsible fire authority concerned to decide, and on present information I do not propose to issue any directions in this matter.

PIONEER CORPS.

Mr. G. Strauss: asked the Home Secretary whether alien members of the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps are subject to the ordinary restrictions of aliens during their periods of leave?

Mr. Morrison: No, Sir.

CIVIL NURSING RESERVE (UNIFORM).

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton Pownall: asked the Minister of Health why he has refused a grant in lieu of outdoor uniform to nursing auxiliaries of the Civil Nursing Reserve, recruited through the British Red Cross Society and the Saint John Ambulance Brigade, this decision being inconsistent with the original policy which gave such members a grant towards their indoor uniform?

Mr. M. MacDonald: I presume that my hon. and gallant Friend refers to those

nursing auxiliaries in the Civil Nursing Reserve who elect also to be members of the British Red Cross Society or the Order of St. John. In the latter capacity they are entitled to wear the normal outdoor uniform of the Society or the Order. Employed members of the Civil Nursing Reserve who do not join the Society or the Order, are eligible for free outdoor uniform which remains the property of the Government and must be returned when the member ceases employment in the Reserve. I have not felt able to justify the issue of a cash grant in lieu of this uniform to those members of the Reserve who are able through membership of the Society or the Order to purchase a uniform which becomes their own property. But I should be prepared to consider the possibility of enabling such members to secure the outdoor uniform of the Civil Nursing Reserve on exactly the same terms as any other member of the Reserve, if that course was acceptable to the Society and the Order.

UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE BOARD.

Mr. Graham White: asked the Minister of Labour whether he will invite the Assistance Board to issue a complete statement of their present functions and services, on lines similar to that issued by the Minister of Pensions, for the use of members of the public?

Mr. Bevin: Yes, Sir.

CIVIL ENGINEERING INDUSTRY (HOLIDAYS WITH PAY).

Mr. David Adams: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that no agreement exists in the civil engineering industry for holidays with pay; and whether he will initiate steps to bring this industry into line with common practice in this matter?

Mr. Bevin: I am aware that no such agreement exists. I understand that the question of making arrangements for holidays with pay in this industry has been raised on the joint board by which the conditions in the industry are regulated, and I am communicating with the Board to inquire what progress is being made.

Mr. Adams: May I take it that little or no progress has been made? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman might give a hint which would be more heplful?

Mr. Bevin: If I make inquiries, it may be taken as a hint.

Oral Answers to Questions — INDIA.

POLITICAL SITUATION.

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has any further statement to make respecting political conditions in India; whether Dr. Manlana Azad, president of the Indian National Congress, has received a sentence of imprisonment; and how many are now in prison or in custody for offences arising out of their political convictions?

The Secretary of State for India (Mr. Amery): As regards the first part of the Question, I have nothing to add to the reply given to two similar Questions on 21st January. The answer to the second part is in the affirmative. I presume that in the third part of his Question the hon. Member is referring to persons convicted of offences under the Defence Rules for speeches or writings prejudicial to the efficient prosecution of the war. I am not in a position to give the total number at present still undergoing sentences of imprisonment, but the number of persons convicted since the commencement of Mr. Gandhi's Civil Disobedience campaign up to 15th January, 1941, was 957. Of these, a certain number must, by now, have completed their sentences. I must remind the hon. Member that the great majority of these persons are in prison at their own wish and as the result of action taken by them with the declared intention of receiving a prison sentence.

Mr. Sorensen: Can my right hon. Friend say what was the sentence imposed on Dr. Manlana Azad, and what exactly was the charge against him?

Mr. Amery: Yes, Sir. He was prosecuted for a speech delivered at Allahabad on 13th December in which he advocated mass civil disobedience, and repeatedly exhorted his hearers not to help the war effort in any way. He received a sentence of 18 months simple imprisonment.

Mr. Cary: asked the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the cessation of discussions between the Viceroy and Indian leaders, he will state the immediate practical steps which will be taken to improve the political situation in India?

Mr. Amery: His Majesty's Government have clearly set out their policy for constitutional advance in India. That policy still holds the field, and I do not see that immediate practical steps can be taken, so far as the Government is concerned, to secure that basis of agreement among Indians that will enable effect to be given to it.

Mr. Cary: Might I ask my right hon. Friend to consider the advisability of sending a good will mission from this country to India, in the hope of achieving some improvement in the situation?

Mr. Amery: it would, first, be necessary to secure the necessary good will and agreement among Indians which is a prerequisite to constitutional advance.

Mr. Cary: That method was successful in the past; why should it not be successful now?

INDUSTRIES (LOCATION).

Sir George Schuster: asked the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the great expansion in Indian manufacturing industry which is likely to take place during the war and of the desirability of ensuring a location of industries in India which will, as far as possible, avoid the creation of unwieldy urban concentrations and permit of industrial workers continuing to live in rural areas, he will request the Government of India and the Provincial Governments in India to give special attention to the location of new factories in consultation with unofficial Indian representatives.

Mr. Amery: I will gladly ask the authorities in India to give such attention as may be possible in the circumstances to my hon. Friend's important suggestion.

Sir Stanley Reed: May I ask my right hon. Friend if he is aware that the rapid diffusion of electrical energy in Madras and Western India does present a magnificent opportunity for the diffusion of these new industries, thereby avoiding the danger of crowding populations in urban areas under sub-tropical conditions?

Mr. Amery: Yes, Sir.

Mr. Cary: When are the recommendations of the Delhi Conference to be published?

Mr. Amery: I must consider that.

GREEK SEAMEN, BRITISH PORTS (DEPORTATIONS).

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Home Secretary why 1,600 Greek seamen, on strike at British ports have, in certain cases, been arrested, and the charges made against them; how many have been on hunger strike; and against how many deportation orders have been issued?

Mr. H. Morrison: My hon. Friend's suggestion that 1,600 Greek seamen are on strike in British ports is mistaken. The situation has much improved lately, and there is no longer any widespread refusal of labour. I am informed that the wages of Greek seamen are fixed by the Greek Government, and understand from my right hon. Friends the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Shipping that the wages of Greek seamen are much in excess of those of British seamen or of seamen of other Allied nationalities. Greek seamen are mobilised by the Greek Government for service in the Greek Merchant Navy, and the Greek Government have asked that those Greek seamen who refuse to serve in Greek ships should be deported to Greece; but they have given an assurance that men thus deported will not be punished on arrival in Greece merely by reason of their refusal to accept employment. I have made Deportation Orders in respect of 12 men, about whom I was satisfied that they were engaged in activities prejudicial to the war effort; and the question of making Deportation Orders in other similar cases is at present under consideration. Four of the men detained went on hunger-strike for a time, but have since abandoned it. It is clear that a number of Greek seamen were misled into a position which I hope will be avoided in future by proper methods of explanation; but if in future others should be misled into refusing to play their part in the Allied war effort, I shall feel it right to use my powers of deportation in any case in which I am satisfied that a Greek seaman in this country has refused to accept employment which was open to him in a Greek ship

Mr. Sorensen: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that there was a sincere and conscientious difference of opinion on the part of many of these seamen regarding the interpretation of certain wage scales? Would he not view the position sympathetically, and see that no man who is on strike for conscientious reasons is punished or treated adversely in this country?

Mr. Morrison: I think that my answer gave the facts. The Ministry of Labour is satisfied that the rate being paid to the men, which is materially in excess of British or Allied rates, is reasonable. In those circumstances, it seems that the matter is primarily one for the Greek Government. If sailors of that nationality are not willing to play their part in the Allied cause, I do not think we should be over-sympathetic.

Mr. Rhys Davies: Will the right hon. Gentleman avoid taking any steps to support the employers of these men by punishing or detaining the men for refusing to accept wages which they think are unsatisfactory?

Mr. Morrison: I do not want to enter into controversy, but the facts are really very much against the seamen in this matter. In any case, we must take account of the wishes of the Greek Government in the matter.

GRAND NATIONAL.

Mr. Lipson: asked the Home Secretary whether he has decided to veto the running of the Grand National for the duration of the war?

Mr. H. Morrison: I have carefully considered the proposal to hold a substitute Grand National at Cheltenham, but have come to the conclusion that this fixture is undesirable. I am accordingly asking the Stewards of the National Hunt Club not to proceed with their proposal.

Mr. Lipson: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that answer, is he aware that it will give very wide public satisfaction?

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: How will this affect the horse-breeding industry?

DISTRIBUTION OF INDUSTRIAL POPULATION.

Mr. Cary: asked the Minister without Portfolio whether he will give an assurance that the Report of the Royal Commission on the Distribution of the Industrial Population will form the main basis of post-war reconstruction; and, further, will he consider the advisability of setting up permanent machinery of administration which could form the cadre of a National Industrial Board?

The Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Arthur Greenwood): I have already considered the Report of the Royal Commission on the Distribution of the Industrial Population and, in consultation with my colleagues who are responsible for the many Departments concerned, I am taking into account the recommendations contained in the Report, including those which relate to the establishment of a National Industrial Board.

RECONSTRUCTION (ADMINISTRATIVE MACHINERY).

Mr. Cary: asked the Minister without Portfolio whether he is yet in position to give any details of the administrative machinery under his direct supervision; and is it his intention to issue a White Paper setting out briefly the initial objectives which it may be possible to attain during the war period?

Mr. Greenwood: No, Sir. The extent to which a plan of reconstruction can be put into operation during the war period cannot be forecast with any certainty, as it must depend largely upon the developments of the war situation. The major part of the work of investigating problems of reconstruction will fall upon the Departments concerned and upon the outside organisations and bodies which I am consulting, and the administrative machinery under my direct supervision will be evolved gradually in the manner which appears to be best adapted for meeting the requirements as the work proceeds.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: Will the right hon. Gentleman pay due regard to having women on some of these Committees which are being set up under this machinery; and is he aware that there is not a woman on the Committee which was set up yesterday.

Mr. Greenwood: Most certainly, and I am in communication now with certain women's organisations.

Oral Answers to Questions — AGRICULTURE.

RABBITS.

Sir William Davison: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware of the damage which is being done throughout the country to crops and timber by rabbits; and whether he will initiate active steps to exterminate this agricultural pest, which is seriously damaging our national food production effort?

Mr. Hudson: Yes, Sir. The damage done by rabbits to food production in this country is out of all proportion to their value as food. I should like to see them completely exterminated, were that possible. Meanwhile active steps are being taken under the Rabbits Order by County War Agricultural Executive Committees for the destruction of this pest. I am satisfied that the campaign has already met with a considerable measure of success, and I am impressing on committees that there must be no relaxation of effort in this direction during the spring and summer.

Sir W. Davison: Is my right hon. Friend aware that large numbers of the public do not realise what he has just said; and will he not consider the issue of some kind of circular to the Press pointing out the enormous amount of foodstuffs eaten by these pests which materially militates against our food production?

Mr. J. J. Davidson: Will my right hon. Friend keep in mind that large numbers of the public cannot get on to many acres of land in order to deal with these animals?

Mr. Hannah: Are not moles even more pestilential than rabbits?

Sir Joseph Lamb: Was it not a mistake for the Minister of Food to control the price of rabbits?

Mr. Hudson: That was done after consultation with my Department.

MILK.

Mr. David Adams: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is


aware that 372 samples of graded milk sold in Newcastle-upon-Tyne during 1940 showed a percentage of 92.4 as satisfactory, and during the same period 726 samples of undesignated milk and 46 samples of accommodation milk showed only 69.56 and 56.52, respectively, satisfactory, and, as these last named qualities due to excrement and pathogenic organisms are dangerous to the public health, are steps being taken by improved supervision of the farms concerned and adequate veterinary inspection to remedy this situation?

Mr. Hudson: A statement of the results of the examination of the milk referred to has been received by my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Health. The supervision of the cleanliness of dairy farms is a matter for the local authority as regards both designated and undesignated milk. The veterinary inspection of dairy cows by my officers is being continued as in peace time, and in this connection I would add that so far as tuberculosis is concerned the number of positive milk samples reported from Newcastle-upon-Tyne in 1940 was very small.

Mr. Adams: Is the Minister aware that there are many farms in the country which have been grossly neglected by their owners and where there have been no veterinary inspection for months? Will he take action?

Mr. Hudson: The hon. Member's Question affects Newcastle-upon-Tyne and I have given him an answer.

Mr. Adams: But that is where the milk goes to for consumption.

STAG HUNT, CARNFORTH.

Mr. Leslie: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to a case of cruelty following a stag hunt recently at Carnforth; and whether, in order to put a stop to this practice whereby animals endure torture, he will take action under the Emergency Powers Defence Act to authorise persons to enter upon land and to take steps for the killing and removal of deer, hares and rabbits, thereby serving a useful purpose by adding to the food supply of the nation?

Mr. Hudson: The answer to the first part of the Question is in the negative. With regard to the second part of the

Question, I would draw the hon. Member's attention to the provisions of the Deer Order, 1940, and the Rabbits Order, 1940, made under the Defence Regulations. These Orders confer powers on county war agricultural executive committees regarding the killing of deer and rabbits, including the power in certain circumstances to enter on land for that purpose. The Orders also provide that, in the exercise of that power, committees may give directions as to the disposal, of deer and rabbits killed.

Mr. Leslie: Is not my right hon. Friend aware—because it has appeared in the Press—that this stag was entangled for three weeks in wire netting until police came up and put it out of its misery? Can nothing be done to stop this horrible practice of stag-hunting?

STEEL TRAPS.

Mr. Mander: asked the Minister of Agriculture, whether it is the desire of the Government that the production of the steel-trap industry for agricultural purposes should be maintained and encouraged at the present time; and whether the necessary priority will be given to demands for the steel necessary for the purpose of manufacture?

Mr. Hudson: The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, arrangements have been made with the Departments concerned for the release of a reasonable quantity of steel to manufacturers.

Mr. Mander: Is it not essential, if this rabbit destruction campaign is to succeed, that this industry should be encouraged?

Mr. Hudson: I have no reason to suppose that there will not be adequate supplies of steel for the construction of rabbit traps.

REMAND HOMES.

Mr. Harvey: asked the Home Secretary whether any steps are being taken to deal with the serious shortage of remand homes; and whether, as this involves the detention of young offenders in prison, local authorities can be urged to make temporary provision to deal with the situation pending the establishment of further permanent remand homes?

Mr. H. Morrison: I have been in communication with local authorities who, under the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933, are responsible for the provision of Remand Homes. Several new Homes have recently been provided and others have been enlarged, but I regret that there is still inadequate accommodation in some areas. I understand that some local authorities have experienced difficulty in finding suitable premises under existing conditions. I can assure my hon. Friend that the subject is receiving close attention. As regards detention in prisons, the law provides that a person under 17 years of age shall only be committed to prison if the Court certifies that he is so unruly or depraved that he cannot be detained in a Remand Home; and shortage of accommodation in such Homes does not justify magistrates in disregarding or straining this statutory limitation.

Mr. Thorne: Will my right hon. Friend give serious consideration to this problem? In West Ham there have been great difficulties in regard to the matter.

Mr. Morrison: I will, Sir, but I think the obligation is on the West Ham town council to provide remand homes.

ALLIED FORCES ACT.

Mr. Silverman: asked the Home Secretary whether he has now completed his inquiries into the questions concerning the alleged abuse by the Polish authorities, with the co-operation of Scotland Yard, of the provisions of the Allied Forces Act, 1940?

Mr. H. Morrison: Immediately after the Question asked by my hon. Friend on 19th December I had exhaustive inquiries made as a result of which it would appear that the allegation that the civil police were in any way concerned must have been made under a misapprehension. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War has been consulted and I understand that the question whether the Polish authorities have jurisdiction over these men under the provisions of the Allied Forces Act is under discussion with those authorities.

Mr. Silverman: Does my right hon. Friend recall that when I asked a Question on this matter in December he invited me to send him particulars of cases about which I knew. I sent these particulars

and would like to know whether he has investigated these cases and, if so, with what result?

Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir. These cases which I have investigated are based on the information which my lion. Friend supplied to me, and my reply is the result of this investigation.

Captain A. Graham: Is the right hon Gentleman aware that there have been numerous instances of Polish citizens of the Jewish Religion endeavouring to evade their military duties as Polish citizens?

Mr. Morrison: I should want notice of that Question.

Oral Answers to Questions — EDUCATION.

TEACHERS (SERVICE PAY).

Sir Robert Young: asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that some teachers have their service pay supplemented by the local education authority, assisted by a grant from his Department, while others of equal status receive no such supplement of service pay from the Board of Education, because the local education authority pays nothing to the teachers; and will he state the justification and authority to pay public money by his Department to one person and not to another employed by the State in similar capacities?

The President of the Board of Education (Mr. Ramsbotham): Teachers working under local education authorities are employed by the authorities and not by the State, and their position in this matter is governed by the Local Government Staffs (War Service) Act, 1939, which empowers local education authorities to make up the civil remuneration of their employés who are engaged in war service. The exercise of this power is a matter for the discretion of the local authorities concerned. The Board's grants are related to the authorities' approved expenditure.

Sir R. Young: Is not this a case in which the Board of Education should try to set a good example to the local authorities? Are they not at present penalising one man against another?

Mr. Ramsbotham: The Board do not employ the teachers or pay them. If there were a proposal that the State should pay teachers, nobody would


object more strenuously than the hon. Gentleman.

Sir R. Young: Is it not the case that at present the Board give one teacher a grant of money and repudiate the other?

Mr. Ramsbotham: The salary is paid by the local education authority, and the Board pay a grant on the authority's expenditure.

NECESSITOUS SCHOOL CHILDREN (CLOTHING AND FOOTWEAR).

Mr. Tomlinson: asked the President of the Board of Education whether he will consider the granting of the powers to local education authorities in England and Wales now operative in Scotland to make provision for the supply of clothing and footwear to necessitous school children?

Mr. Ramsbotham: No, Sir. Powers already exist for providing clothing and footwear for necessitous school children and I see no need to introduce legislation to empower local education authorities to make such provision.

Mr. Tomlinson: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain what powers we have in this country which they have not in Scotland for dealing with this problem?

Mr. Ramsbotham: The Scottish powers were taken as long ago as 1908. If there were no provision in this country for the purpose which the hon. Gentleman has in mind, I should sympathise with his proposal.

Mr. Tomlinson: asked the Minister of Health how many directors of education have received grants in order to provide footwear and clothing for necessitous school children; the names of the authorities, and the amounts of the grant made to each; and under what authority, and from what source, such grants were made?

Mr. M. MacDonald: The primary responsibility for supplying school children with boots and clothing must continue to rest with their parents. In view, however, of the special difficulties in urgent cases in war time of clothing for evacuated school children I have given authority under Section 56 of the Civil Defence Act, 1939, to town clerks and directors of education in evacuation areas to spend from public funds up to a

present total of approximately £20,000 as an emergency supplement to such local funds as they have been able to provide from voluntary sources. The other information desired by the hon. Member covers some pages of figures, and I am sending it to him.

Mr. Tomlinson: Will the right hon. Gentleman examine the answer which the President of the Board of Education gave a few minutes ago and ask why the powers which he said were available have not been put into operation?

Mr. Cove: Does the granting of this money depend solely upon the decision of the director of education? Is there no local committee concerned about it?

Mr. MacDonald: It is done in consultation with those people who know the circumstances of the parents and the child.

Mr. Cove: Is it true to say that this is a secret fund secretly administered?

Mr. MacDonald: No, certainly not.

Mr. Tomlinson: Are not the grants made under a document headed "Private and Confidential"?

Mr. MacDonald: That does not mean that this is secret to a very small number of people. The existence of this fund is generally known and in the localities a great deal of the details are perfectly well understood.

PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

Mr. Lipson: asked the President of the Board of Education whether he can make a statement of the purpose and progress of the discussions that have been taking place between representatives of the Board of Education and of the public schools?

Mr. Ramsbotham: No discussion is taking place between my Department and the Governors of public schools, nor have I been approached by the schools in the matter. Certain informal discussions have, however, been held locally at which members of the local education authority and individual governors and headmasters of public and secondary schools have examined possible ways in which the independent boarding schools could be brought into closer association with the State system of education and could make further contributions towards the welfare


of young people in their localities. In some cases officers of my Department have participated in these discussions at the invitation of those who initiated them.

Mr. Lipson: Will the House be informed of the results of those informal discussions?

Mr. Ramsbotham: I am carefully considering the matter, but the stage for formal discussions has not yet been reached.

Sir Percy Harris: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of appointing a Royal Commission or some influential committee to inquire into the whole position of public schools in future?

Mr. Ramsbotham: That had better be considered if and when formal discussions take place.

HEALTH SERVICES, NEWQUAY.

Mr. Horabin: asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the unsatisfactory state of the health services in Newquay; and whether he proposes to take any action to improve them, in view of the large increase of the population due to the billeting of official evacuees in the town?

Mr. M. MacDonald: I am aware of the position in the district to which the hon. Member refers. The county health services have recently been strengthened by the appointment of an additional assistant county medical officer, the seconding of six school nurses to the county by the London County Council, and the expansion of the district medical service. Local health services have been improved by the establishment of a general sick bay and of a special sick bay and clinic for skin cases. Further steps at present under consideration include the appointment of another assistant county medical officer, part of whose time would be devoted to this area, and the provision of additional hospital accommodation for cases of infectious disease.

Mr. Davidson: Will the Minister consider sending them information of the health services in areas where there is a Labour majority?

IMPORTED DRUGS.

Sir Francis Fremantle: asked the Minister of Health what steps have been taken to limit the prescription by medical practitioners of non-essential imported drugs, and the sale of such drugs as ingredients in proprietary medicines, and to suggest alternatives produced in this country?

Mr. M. MacDonald: A Defence Regulation has been made on this subject and its details will be published in the course of the next few days.

Sir F. Fremantle: Will my right hon. Friend see that the results of this inquiry are brought home in a practical and useful form to the general practitioners and the panel practitioners?

Mr. MacDonald: I intend to give general advice to the general practitioners in this matter and details of the matter will appear in the medical journals.

Sir F. Fremantle: Will they be provided with suitable alternative materials which they can prescribe?

Mr. MacDonald: Yes, Sir.

ARMED FORCES (PENSIONS AND GRANTS).

Mr. Mathers: asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware of the hardship suffered by pensioners of the last war existing upon small fixed allowances during this period of increased prices; and whether he will take action to remedy this position?

The Minister of Pensions (Sir Walter Womersley): Conditions under which the pension rates may be raised are laid down in the Royal Warrant of the 6th December, 1919. The hon. Member may be assured that steps will be taken to increase the rates when the cost of living justifies it.

Mr. Mathers: Has not the Minister received representations from other quarters, for example the British Legion, that the time is now ripe for having a review of these allowances, and has he taken such appeals into consideration?

Sir W. Womersley: Yes, Sir. I have received one or two representations and I have taken them into consideration.

Mr. Sorensen: Does the Minister realise that these pensioners have received a reduction of approximately 25 per cent. in their pension owing to the increase in the cost of living?

Sir W. Womersley: No, Sir.

Sir T. Moore: Is my right hon. Friend aware that these pensioners of the last war are the only people who have received no advance since this war started?

Sir W. Womersley: They received their advance before the war.

Sir T. Moore: And a reduction.

Sir W. Womersley: No reduction.

Mr. Mathers: How much further has the cost of living to rise before any notice is taken of it in their case?

Sir W. Womersley: To the point at which it was in 1919.

Major Sir Jocelyn Lucas: asked the Minister of Pensions why Mr. D. F. P. Howard, late 69th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery, Duke of Connaught's Own, who was passed A1 in 1932, in June, 1939, and in August, 1939, and who was invalided on 13th January, 1940, suffering from valvular disease of the heart, has not been granted any pension or given compensation; and whether he is now prepared to take suitable action in the matter?

The Vice-Chamberlain of the Household (Sir James Edmondson): It has not been possible in the time available to obtain the papers regarding this case. I will, however, look into it and write to the hon. and gallant Member as soon as possible.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES' LOANS.

Mr. R. C. Morrison: asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether permission is given to local authorities to convert outstanding loans to a lower rate of interest?

Sir J. Edmondson: No, Sir; not at present.

Mr. Morrison: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman represent to his right hon. Friend that local authorities and their rate-payers are facing serious financial difficulties? With the Government borrowing

at 2½ per cent. and 3 per cent. they resent having to continue paying interest on loans at 6 per cent.

Sir J. Edmondson: My hon. Friend can rest assured that this matter will be constantly borne in mind.

LONDON FASHION COLLECTION (SOUTH AMERICA).

Sir P. Hannon: asked the Secretary to the Department of Overseas Trade what progress is being made in the preparation of exhibits for the Fashion Exhibition at Buenos Aires and Rio in the forthcoming spring under the auspices of his Department and the Export Council?

Sir J. Edmondson: Arrangements are being completed for the exhibition to he known as "The London Fashion Collection for South America" to be presented in Buenos Aires, Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo and Montevideo, in April next. It will comprise a number of models which have been specially designed by nine of the leading London dressmakers from fabrics supplied by the Export Groups representing every branch of the textile industry.

Sir P. Hannon: Would my hon. and gallant Friend say whether the Department is receiving the active co-operation of all those interested in sending exhibits to the places mentioned in his reply?

Sir J. Edmondson: I understand so.

Sir J. Lamb: Can he say whether these are live or dead models?

Sir J. Edmondson: They are very much alive.

DISUSED TINPLATE WORKS.

Mr. Pearson: asked the Minister of Supply whether he will state the progress being made by the Redundancy Committee set up by the tinplate trade to investigate the problem of old and disused tinplate works; and what decision has been arrived at regarding the Treforest Works, Glamorgan?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I am informed that the Redundancy Committee is proceeding as rapidly as possible with their investigation of this


complex problem. Under war conditions the production of tinplate is likely to be reduced, but as was explained to the hon. Member on 13th November, information about the Treforest works has already been noted in case an opportunity arises for using the buildings for other purposes.

Mr. James Griffiths: Can the Minister say whether active and urgent steps are being taken to find alternative employment for the men near their homes?

Mr. Macmillan: That is another question. This Question referred to the actual works buildings and the possibility of using plant and scrap.

MOLES, DESTRUCTION (SCOTLAND).

Mr. Hannah: asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the serious increase of moles in certain areas of Scotland; and what measures does he propose to take to eradicate these pests and secure their valuable pelts?

The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Westwood): I am aware that moles are a serious pest in certain parts of Scotland. Occupiers of land are free to destroy moles but in the interests of increased food production powers have been delegated to Agricultural Executive Committees to serve Orders requiring the destruction of vermin and, failing compliance with an Order, to enter on the land and do the work required. Committees are also empowered to authorise the purchase of strychnine for the purpose of killing moles. Occupiers and others are at liberty to preserve and sell mole skins.

Mr. Mander: Are not rats worse than moles?

COMMODITY INSURANCE SCHEME.

Mr. Higgs: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the delay that is taking place in making payment of admitted claims for commodities destroyed by enemy action; and will he see that prompt settlement is made forthwith?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Major Lloyd George): Special measures have been taken to minimise delay in dealing with claims

under the Commodity Insurance Scheme, and there has been a substantial and satisfactory increase in the output in recent weeks. I shall be glad to examine any cases of serious delay my hon. Friend has in mind to see whether further improvement can be effected.

FOOD SUPPLIES (CHEESE).

Sir Percy Hurd: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, as representing the Ministry of Food, whether he is considering the appeal by farmworkers' organisations in Wiltshire, and other rural counties, for a fair ration of cheese, as one of the best body-building foods in conjunction with bread and beer; and whether means can be devised to grant their request?

Major Lloyd George: Cheese is distributed by the Ministry so that the different areas of the country receive supplies, so far as practicable, in proportion to their needs. My Noble Friend does not consider that cheese is a suitable commodity for rationing at this stage. As I have stated in reply to similar Questions, cheese is in short supply at present, but my Noble Friend is endeavouring to secure the maximum imports, and meanwhile he has asked the general public to reduce their consumption so that supplies of cheese will be left for those who need it.

Sir P. Hurd: Will my hon. and gallant Friend say what grounds there were for the suggestion in the Press yesterday that very shortly we are to have 100 per cent. supplies of cheese?

Major Lloyd George: I do not know that particular reference, but I do know that my Noble Friend is very hopeful that supplies will be much improved.

Mr. Thorne: Does the Minister know that a good lump of cheese with some bread is as good as any meal?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. Lees-Smith: May I ask the Lord Privy Seal whether he will state the forthcoming Business?

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): On the first and second Sitting Days we shall make further progress in Committee on the War Damage Bill.
On the third Sitting Day we shall take the Committee stage of Votes of Credit for War Expenditure, and, if there is time, proceed further with the War Damage Bill.

Earl Winterton: Has the Lord Privy Seal given consideration to the suggestion, made in the course of the Debate yesterday, that the Sitting Days should be lengthened to enable progress to be made on the War Damage Bill?

Mr. Attlee: Yes, Sir, the House is aware of the urgency for dealing with the War Damage Bill and other Measures as well as the financial business which usually comes before the House at this period of the Session. We shall make proposals at the next Sitting.

Sir P. Hurd: Is not that course likely to add to the prolixity of Members?

Mr. Attlee: I am afraid, whether the hours are short or long, it does not really affect the prolixity of Members.

DIPLOMATIC PRIVILEGES (EXTENSION) BILL [Lords].

Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day.

Orders of the Day — WAR DAMAGE BILL.

Considered in Committee. [Progress 29th January.]

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 7.—(Determination of questions as to works and value.)

CLAUSE 8.—(Provisions for securing the national interest in the making of payments.)

CLAUSE 9.—(Time when payments may be made.)

Sir H. Webbe: I beg to move, in page 8, line 13, to leave out "or after."
In regard to the Amendment I have just moved, it seems to me that in the case where a cost-of-works payment is in practice to be made, and where works are in progress, that payment should be made when those works have been completed and that there should be no delay thereafter. The removal of the words "or after" make the Clause read that payment should be made on completion of the works. I had also put my name to an Amendment to leave out from "commission," to "be," line 11, because I thought it was desirable that anyone who had suffered damage by the destruction of property should know within a


reasonable time whether he was to receive a cost-of-works payment or a value payment, but in view of what the Chancellor said yesterday, namely, that the factors on which under Clause 5 a determination as to whether a value payment will fall to be made or not must be ascertained in relation to post-war costs and value, I can see that any such condition as is proposed in the Amendment would be impossible and I therefore do not feel like taking the responsibility of moving it. That is the ordinarily-understood phrase in commerce. It does not mean that the payment must be made the instant the works are completed. It means that on completion of the works payment shall be due, and that it shall be made at a reasonable time thereafter.

Sir K. Wood: I do not think there is any difference between us as to our intentions. I can give the assurance that, as long as present conditions in regard to the supply of materials continue, it is the intention that the payment should be made as soon as possible after the completion of the works. If and when the conditions as regards the supplies of materials change, it may be necessary for the Commission to exercise their own control over the carrying out of works. I will examine the matter again in the light of what my hon. Friend has said.

Mr. Benson: Does that apply also to temporary works?

Sir K. Wood: Yes, certainly.

Mr. Silkin: I feel that there should be no doubt whatever that when a person has embarked on work, relying on being paid by the Commission, he should be paid. Any doubt about the supply of materials and so on, should be settled before the work is commenced.

Sir K. Wood: I think that is quite reasonable. The idea of this wording was to give the Commission a reasonable time to see whether everything that should have been done had been done; but I will re-examine the matter in the light of what my hon. Friend has said.

Major Milner: While the right hon. Gentleman has been very reasonable, perhaps the matter is more serious than he realises. I am informed that every Government Department which has to do with the requisitioning or taking over of

land—and indeed, many other Departments which are concerned with contracts and supplies and so on—is very much behind. There are large sums owing by the Treasury to-day. The difficulty is to find means of enforcement without recourse to the courts or other such extreme measures. I believe that contracts in some cases are being financed by the banks rather than by the Treasury. I can quite believe that that is not intended by the Government, but there is no doubt that claims are being held up. For instance, I am told by those who should know that the Air Ministry is much behind with its payments, and that the machinery is blocked to a very great extent. Therefore, it would be helpful if those words were taken out. They seem quite superfluous.
The right hon. Gentleman says that he desires to give a reasonable opportunity to check the works, and so on. I speak in the presence of the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General, but I should have thought that a provision to pay on completion of the works would have been implied in the ordinary way that payment should be made in a reasonable time after the completion of the works; but in that case there would be a limit to the period allowed. They would, presumably, if the Treasury were extremely slow, take some action in the courts or elsewhere to compel payment. If it is permissive to pay after completion of works, that may be six months, one year, two years, or, for anything I know, 10 years. Therefore, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will look closely into the matter and ensure, if possible, that payment is made on completion of works, or within a reasonable time thereafter.

Sir K. Wood: I will look into the matter. It is not possible for me to make a decision now, but I do not think that there should be any difference of opinion.

Sir H. Williams: I agree that any assurance which the Chancellor of the Exchequer might now give us would make it look as though this semi-socialist institution lacks decision. I was delighted to hear it said in effect that governments are slow and dilatory in these matters. Capitalists do not pay because they do not want to pay, and a Government does not pay because it is so incompetent that it cannot make up its mind to pay, or


how much it owes. It is as well that this should be said occasionally because the delays are incredible.

Mr. Woodburn: I understand it is the case that in regard to buildings it is sometimes advisable to hold a portion of the payment back until it can be seen whether a building will stand up after it has been put up, and I do not think that we ought to deprive the State of the same powers to check the construction of a building by a private contractor.

Sir H. Webbe: In view of the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he has in mind to do what is desirable, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Spens: I beg to move in page 8, line 19, to leave out Sub-section (2).
The reason I suggest that this Subsection should be left out is on account of the last words in the Sub-section,
the Commission may direct that the right to the payment shall be forfeited.
I suggest to the Committee that some dilatoriness or inability to complete the work in respect of which a claim has to be met is no ground whatever for the drastic provision of forfeiting the whole right of the claimant. It will lead to trouble as to who is responsible and so forth, and surely the safeguard that the money is payable after the work is finished is the best possible safeguard that anyone could have, and I suggest that the Sub-section should be omitted.

Sir K. Wood: I agree that perhaps this does go too far. We might consider an Amendment on the lines of the measure of the cost occasioned by the delay or something of that sort. Something on those lines would perhaps meet the case. I will consider the Amendment on Report in the light of my statement and of what my hon. and learned Friend has said.

Mr. Spens: Will my right hon. Friend allow the Sub-section to come out in the meantime?

Sir H. Williams: Do I take it from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the statement will apply to the terms of my Amendment "by reason of the fault or the default of the claimant"?

Sir K. Wood: I will consider that.

Sir H. Webbe: I have two Amendments on the Paper closely related to this point. They are in page 8, line 23, after "Commission" insert:
if all payments have been made in respect of works already completed (including any temporary works)
and in page 8, line 30, at the end to insert:
unless the failure to complete was caused or contributed to by the non-receipt of payment in respect of works already completed or in progress or in any other circumstances beyond the control of the persons concerned in securing the execution of the works.
These ask that in no case should there be any forfeiture if default is due to the failure on the part of the Treasury to pay compensation and so put a claimant in funds to carry on his work. If the Chancellor will look at that point it will save my formally moving these Amendments.

Sir K. Wood: Certainly.

Mr. Silkin: I have an Amendment in page 8, line 25, to leave out "or other the person" and insert "or persons" which seeks to ensure that all persons interested shall be notified.

Sir H. Williams: I think my Amendment raises the same point. It is in page 8, line 30, at the end to insert "unless there is any other proprietary interest in the hereditament."

Mr. E. Evans: I am so much concerned about the health of the Chancellor that I suggest he should withdraw the Subsection.

Sir K. Wood: I think hon. Members may trust me.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir H. Williams: I beg to move in page 8, line 31, to leave out "two" and insert "four."
It will be observed that the rate of interest proposed where payment is deferred is 2½ per cent. I can see what is in the mind of the Chancellor and his advisers. When they put in 2½ per cent. to come out of the Treasury they did not want to suggest that it was worth more than 2½ per cent. because the Chancellor has to raise a great deal of money. What is the general rate at which people borrow money on mortgage? It is 4, 5 or 5½ per cent. according to the circumstances. Here we have a question which raises the very difficult position where


payment cannot be made at once. The owner of a house may have a two-thirds interest in his house covered by mortgage, on which he is paying 4½ or 5 per cent., and the result is that on paper he will be seriously out of pocket. I want to suggest that this very difficult problem can only be solved if we realise that the kind of rate of interest applicable to the form of capital we are dealing with should be not 2½ per cent. but something in the neighbourhood of 4½ per cent. I believe this would solve the Chancellor's problem far more satisfactorily than in any other way and I do not think the difference between 2½ per cent. and 4½ per cent. will imperil the scheme.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: The Amendment moved by the hon. Gentleman is one which, in our opinion, raises a point of considerable importance, because under this Clause we are threatened with a position which would affect a considerable number of people who have a mortgage on their property at a higher rate of interest than 2½ per cent and who, if their house is destroyed, will be in considerable difficulties through being called upon to pay their mortgage interest while not receiving anything from the Government at the time. And when they do receive something, it is to be at 2½ per cent., which will obviously be lower than the rate which they will have to pay That obviously raises very serious questions. I have thought myself of several ways in which the position might be remedied, apart from that mentioned in the Amendment; it might be done by persuading the mortgagee to take a lower rate of interest, or by postponing the whole matter until later on. It cannot be allowed to remain exactly where it is, because the Courts Emergency Provisions did not seem to meet the position It is one of the repercussions of the Bill in the field of mortgage which correspond with the repercussions in the field of landlord and tenant of which the Attorney-General was speaking just now. It therefore seems to me that we need some statement from the Government as to their intentions in regard to this matter, which is one which will affect very large numbers of people all over the country It is very important and these repercussions will be most

serious. I invite the Chancellor to tell us a little more of what the Government are contemplating in this regard.

Mr. Spens: May I add a word in support of what has been said by my hon. Friend opposite? The reason why I have my next Amendment on the Paper, suggesting that the cost-of-works payments should bear interest as well, is in order to try and deal with this great difficulty of mortgagors who have to go on paying interest yet who have not even 2½ per cent. accumulating to help them. I hope the Chancellor will bear that in mind as well as the points which have already been mentioned.

Sir K. Wood: This matter, as has been said, is an important one. So far as the Amendment on the Paper is concerned, I would say that the reason we in fact chose the rate of 2½ per cent. is that we regard the matter in the light of a Government responsibility towards the people who will ultimately receive the money, and it is proposed to pay a rate of interest conforming more or less to what the State pays on its other borrowings. My hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams), with the ingenuity which characterises him, says that this is a good way of endeavouring to meet the position of the mortgagor under this Bill, who might find himself with his house in ashes but his liability under the mortgage still remaining.
I very much doubt whether this is in fact the best way of meeting this position because unless you look at the circumstances of the man concerned as well, you may find a case of a mortgagor probably much better off, and much more easily able to meet the burden, than the mortgagee who is entitled to the interest. There are very many cases of trust estates, as I know, for I used to advise people myself to make investments by way of mortgage on property, telling them, "Here is a safe security—better than, say, stocks and shares or trustee securities." There are undoubtedly large numbers of estates which have lent money in that way, and whose beneficiaries are to-day looking solely to the interest that they are receiving in that way to maintain them. You cannot dispose of this matter by saying, "Well, the unfortunate mortgagor has to pay this money, what


is to happen about it?" You cannot use the words "unfortunate mortgagor," as against the mortgagee, until you know more about them. The mortgagor may be suffering the misfortune of having his property bombed and lost, but he may be better off in many other ways than many of us who are here to-day. He may have resources. Compare his position with that of, say, the beneficiaries of the trust. Let us take the case of the widow—because the widow is so often mentioned in connection with the Treasury, and how they are imposing upon her—who depends entirely upon the interest of the mortgage in which the trustees have invested for her.
When you think of the matter you are driven to the conclusion that, in order to deal justly, you must have some sort of machinery, not in this Bill, but in another Bill. If the matter is sufficiently pressed the Government can decide to bring in another Bill, which will deal with this matter very much on the lines of the other provisions. It seems to me that any machinery which may be devised must take account of such a case. But it is clear that when the Government introduced this Bill, as the Prime Minister said, we sought to deal only with actual physical damage caused by the war. My answer to my hon. Friend is that, at any rate, so far as this proposal is concerned, this is obviously not a practical way of dealing with it. One must have much more regard for the circumstances of the individual. Secondly, any cases of this sort would have to be dealt with on the lines of the legislation about which the Attorney-General has already spoken.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: There is only one point in the right hon. Gentleman's speech which has rather alarmed me. He suggested that there might be another Bill if the matter was thought to be sufficiently important. I hope that that does not mean that the Government, when they have got this Bill through, are going to say that the matter is not terribly important, and that they are going to do no more about it. I feel that there will be points of this kind arising, and I hope that it is seriously the intention to tackle the problem at some early future time, otherwise I am afraid the situation will be very unsatisfactory.

Sir K. Wood: I am only now concerned with my own Bill, and I do not intend any disrespect. It is also fair to say that in a very large number of cases, as I know from my own personal knowledge, people are, in fact, adjusting themselves to the position. I have noticed it in connection with the building societies. I will convey what the right hon. Gentleman has said to the Attorney-General, who has had all this matter under review, and who is also dealing with a certain number of matters. I know that he has been considering this matter, and I will convey to him what has been said.

The Chairman: The right hon. Gentleman said just now that he is only concerned with this Bill, and this gives me an opportunity of saying that a certain amount of what has been said before has been rather out of Order, and I think that hon. Members should realise in future the very narrow limits of this Bill. I am afraid that when the Chair gets more accustomed to it, it will be getting more strict with regard to other considerations.

Sir H. Williams: I am not altogether unconvinced by what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said, but I realise the complexity of the problem and do not want to delay the progress of the Bill. Therefore, I intend to ask for leave to withdraw the Amendment. Would the Chancellor consider whether it is not desirable to report Progress at this stage and ask leave to sit again? I do not think that it is quite fair, in regard to all the circumstances, that we should proceed any further with this most complex Bill at the moment.

Sir K. Wood: May we have Clause 9, and then I will move to report Progress.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Woodburn: I beg to move, in page 9, line 8, to leave out "five hundred," and insert "one thousand."
This will not alter any decision which the Chancellor of the Exchequer may make, but it will extend the power of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in respect of any decision he might want to make. I certainly think that £500 is too small an amount to cover some of the contingencies which might arise under this Clause. Any number of families might find their hereditament damaged and have to seek


housing accommodation, and £500 to-day or in the future will certainly not be enough to produce even the smallest type of house. Therefore, I think that up to £1,000 should be covered by this Clause under the powers of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as far as making a grant is concerned. It is a matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to agree to this extra power, or to restrict himself, as the Clause does. In my opinion £1,000 will fit the Bill far better than the £500 which is specified.

Sir K. Wood: I want the hon. Gentleman to remember this in connection with a proposal of this character. Any advance that we make to anybody who is a beneficiary under the Bill has its consequences, and if, for instance, you make an advance to somebody on account—in a large number of cases advances will be made for rent—it means that the person to whom the advance is made cannot get it later on. This is particularly so in the case of a man to whom money is advanced by way of rent. Here you may not be doing him a service, because if he can continue without an undue amount of assistance he will ultimately get a sum of compensation which has not been reduced too much on account of any advance he may have previously received. There may be a number of cases where sums advanced are of too considerable a character and where the individual may regret it and say, "I wish I had pulled in a bit more so that later on I should have been able to purchase a new house," or something of that kind. That was the reason why we fixed the sum of £500. The hon. Gentleman suggested £1,000; perhaps we may go between the two figures, but if we make the amount too large the Commission may be unduly pressed. However, I will consult with the hon. Gentleman between now and the Report stage to see if we can come to some arrangement.

Mr. Silkin: This also applies to the securing of premises to carry on trade or business, and that, I submit, is a more difficult case. Normally, £500 to secure premises ought to be adequate but for

carrying on a business there may be a stronger case. Perhaps the Chancellor may consider the two cases separately?

Sir K. Wood: Yes, Sir, I will certainly do that.

Mr. Woodburn: I was interested in the Chancellor's reasoning, but I imagine that what he says would be taken into account by the Commission before advancing anything at all, and that the only question was that of the power to have in reserve. I think in both cases the Commission might think it just to extend beyond £500. It may be far more convenient for a person to buy a house for £550 at the moment, and it may be convenient for the Commission to have the matter settled in that way. Yet under the Clause as it now stands they are barred from taking that very easy way out. However, in view of the Chancellor's decision to come to some arrangement, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[Mr. Grimston.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon the next Sitting Day.

Orders of the Day — SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.

Resolved,
That the Orders made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section 1 of that Act to the undermentioned areas, namely:—

(1) the urban district of Exmouth,
(2) the urban district of Hinckley,
(3) the urban district of Ilfracombe,
(4) the urban district of Matlock,
(5) the urban district of Melton Mowbray,
(6) the urban district of Ross-on-Wye,
(7) the urban district of Tring,

copies of which were presented to this House on 21st January, be approved."—[Mr. Grimston.]

Orders of the Day — ADJOURNMENT.

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Grimston.]